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Need hot tub help

lakeliving

lakeliving

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[SIZE=medium]I know this isn’t boat related but the faster I can get this tub fixed the faster I can get back to having a happy wife. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Issue- Circulation pump will not run on our 2009 Master Spa LSX1000. Without this running there is no flow through the heater, thus it overheats and shuts off rendering the whole tub useless. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I have checked everything that I can think of and am still left scratching my head. The pump requires 230v 4A but only has three wires running to it. Looking at the circuit board and some limited information from a dealer they are two 110 lines(120something using a volt meter) at the plug feeding the pump. The black shows 120 v, the white wire shows 120v and there is a ground. This is how all of the pumps are wired. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Here is the series of tests I have done. [/SIZE]

  1. [SIZE=medium]Verified power to the tub- Check[/SIZE]
  2. [SIZE=medium]Fuses- Check[/SIZE]
  3. [SIZE=medium]Ordered a new circulation pump and plugged it in-still didn't work –sent it back[/SIZE]
  4. [SIZE=medium]Unplugged similar size/load pump that works in the tub and plugged into the circulation plug, the pump would no longer work, [/SIZE]
  5. [SIZE=medium]Plugged old circulation pump into the working circuit for another pump and the pump does not turn on. [/SIZE]
  6. [SIZE=medium]There is no blockage anywhere[/SIZE]
  7. [SIZE=medium]New filters[/SIZE]


[SIZE=medium]I am really at a loss here. If there is power at the plug why won’t the circulation pump run, or another pump that I know is working run on that circuit? If the pump is bad, another pump should work on that circuit, if the circuit is bad then the pump should work on the other circuit. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]All the local spa places want to just set up a service call so I can spend $160 for an hours’ worth of time checking what I already know. I’ve also read horror stories of tech’s just rambling off parts, people spending thousands of dollars and still not have a working tub. A new panel is $850 and I’d really be in hot water if I ordered that and it did not solve the issue. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I’ve checked all the hot tub forums I can find and people with similar issues never posted up a resolution on the problem. Very frustrating. [/SIZE]
 
You mentioned a panel...

Is it possible that even though you have power at the terminals of the pump that there's still a control switch or signal that actually turns the pump on??? Like your stove, there's always 240v at the terminals, but the burners aren't on all the time. Seems like that would fit with all your other results...
 
The circulation pump runs 24/7 and is not manually switched on or off like the other pumps. If there is power to the tub this pump should be running. I tested each leg feeding the pump individually but didn't test them together to confirm 240v. Don't know why I didn't do that before but will tonight and hopefully determine if I received a bad replacement pump or if there is a power delivery issue at the panel.
 
Test the power at the motor leads, verify that you have 240 between the two power leads at the motor. If you do then something with the motor if not then it is in the controls, or power coming into the tub.

Do you have a schematic for your hot tub ?
 
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It does look like there are some internal controls that can turn your pump on and off.

Circ Pump

Your system may be configured to work in one of three different ways:

1. The circ pump operates continuously (24 hours) with the exception of turning off for 30 minutes at a time when the water temperature reaches 3 ̊ F (1.5 ̊C) above the set temperature (most likely to happen in very hot climates).

2. The circ pump stays on continuously, regardless of water temperature.

3. The circ pump will come on when the system is checking temperature (polling), during filter cycles,

during freeze conditions, or when another pump is on.

4. If the circulation pump operates for more than 15 minutes without proper water flow, it will shut down and not operate until power to the spa has been reset.

NOTE: Factory configuration is chosen based on what the majority of users will need. If you would

like your spa to operate in a different configuration setting, your dealer can change your setting for a fee.
 
Thanks Chris. I am an hour away at work but will be testing the leads at the connection to confirm a full 240 combined at the panel plug and the motor if I can get in there. I'll be happy and seriously annoyed if it is the pump. It is a cheaper repair but I've been going nuts trying to trouble shoot every other option.

Here is the only schematic I have along with the view of the panel.

CD9010D6-B2C5-412C-9E10-8081D0A6FC1A_zpsgpv8etgm.jpg


114295BB-445C-49A2-9D31-934098CD0EA6_zpsmsvno6xz.jpg
 
Those look like the controls to the Hot Tub Timemachine!!!!
 
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Wonder if that K9 relay is bad... I assume those black cubes are relays. K9 is adjacent to the J3 connector...

W7 is right in that same area, wiring chart says its for J3 which is the circulation pump. I've had relays fail on cars. Do they pull out, or soldered in?

If it comes out you could try swapping it with another one with the same rating...
 
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Look to see if you have a flow switch as it may need to be replaced.  The switch checks to see if you have water flowing from the pump, if no flow it will electrically shut things down to protect the heater from overheating.  Look for a device somewhere (but not far from the control panel) that is mounted in-line on a water hose.  It will have 2 wires leaving it and nothing around it.  I had one fail on my spa.  You should able to test its operation with a simple ammeter to see if it is functioning and it will be easy to replace.
 
kaydano said:
Wonder if that K9 relay is bad... I assume those black cubes are relays. K9 is adjacent to the J3 connector...

W7 is right in that same area, wiring chart says its for J3 which is the circulation pump. I've had relays fail on cars. Do they pull out, or soldered in?

If it comes out you could try swapping it with another one with the same rating...
Click to expand...
There is no wire to connected to J3, There is a pump 1 and a pump 2, That is just looking at the actual picture of the board. Must be many configurations for the same board, because your right it does say circ pump on J3 but there is nothing plugged in there.

Andy, did you get a chance to test the leads connected to the motor, 
 
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Uhh, Is it just the picture, or is your main green ground wire not connected anymore? Probably want the ground connected in a hot tub! hehe
 
BulldogsCadillac said:
Uhh, Is it just the picture, or is your main green ground wire not connected anymore? Probably want the ground connected in a hot tub! hehe
Click to expand...
Winner winner chicken dinner. Glad someone didn't get fried....
 
The ground actually leaves the panel through a hole and is attached with other grounds outside the box.

So last night I checked each feed at the control panel and get 120 volts at the plug, but when I check them together to test for 240 I get less than a volt.....

I then plugged in the circ pump and checked the power getting to the pump itself. Each lead tested individually showed 120v, test both hots and less than a volt.....

I then tested pump 4 and got the same readings at the plug, but as soon as I hit the switch I heard a click in the board and then the two hots showed 240....

So I am thinking this is a relay issue. Problem is it looks soldered in....so the $18 part cannot be replaced without spending hundreds.

Curious on a flow switch issue but curious how that would shut the circ pump off. Currently the heater shuts off as there is no flow so It seems like flow switches are woking. I'm up for checking everything though.

Thanks all
 
And the circ pump does plug into J3. I did not have it plugged in during that photo.
 
With everything plugged in and turned on, try tapping the relay with the plastic end of a screwdriver.  Sometimes terminals get stuck in them and that will free them up.
 
Dang, researched that board ..... $300-$600 bucks. I don't feel so bad now when I had to pay $150 for my furnace circuit board !!!
 
De-soldering and replacing the relay really isn't that hard, i think it would take longer to get the board in and out.

I do a few instrument panel repairs that require the same soldering operations (yes, Chevy's) so if you don't feel confident doing it, i'm sure you could find someone who can. And the relay isn't anything special either, just get the part # and do an internet search.
 
I ended up pulling the board. Not sure how one would go about even replacing that relay it is so microscopic where it connects to the board. Bama, any advise on testing the relay. It looks to be about $18 bucks to replace but I could trash the board in doing so. What gets me is the pump doesn't work on other circuits. So did the pump go bad and fry the relay? I don't see any signs of burning or shorts when I removed it.

Thanks for all the help guys! Jeffrond....where was your post before I removed the panel!!!!!
 
It doesn't sound like the board is bad to me, but if you do decide to replace the relay, the most expedient method is to destroy the part first while it's still on the PCB, leaving just the pins. Then carefully remove one pin at a time. Don't overheat the solder pads or you'll pull them right off the board. If you don't have a solder sucker, toothpicks work well in a pinch to wick and clean the solder from the holes afterwards, with just a little heat.

Can you just bypass the circuit and apply the correct voltage to the pump motor to see if it runs? That's what a tech probably does first.
 
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