Stereo Upgrade - Amp & Sub: SubWoofer Design & Installation
- Thread starter LaurencetheAdventurer
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LD50
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They're likely running your sub through this method, per the manual:
Sub Input: If there is no dedicated output on your source unit for a subwoofer, use the SUB INPUTswitch to set your subwoofer input to either SUB INPUT or AMP INPUT 2.
Why? It's an extra cable and extra install and most of these companies will use the easiest/cheapest way to install the stereo over the correct way. You might be able to gain some additional flexibility and performance from your current sub by running another RCA to the amp and switching it to sub input. It wouldn't take much to try it.
Sub Input: If there is no dedicated output on your source unit for a subwoofer, use the SUB INPUTswitch to set your subwoofer input to either SUB INPUT or AMP INPUT 2.
Why? It's an extra cable and extra install and most of these companies will use the easiest/cheapest way to install the stereo over the correct way. You might be able to gain some additional flexibility and performance from your current sub by running another RCA to the amp and switching it to sub input. It wouldn't take much to try it.
Either that, or there was an older headunit in there that didn't have a suboutput...
So I should get another set of rca cables and run front to amp 1, rear to amp2, and suboutput to sub input on amp
I am still not sure how speakers 5 and 6 are hooked up.. certainly not to zone 2, which is where I. Would like them... l but would probably need another amp
So I should get another set of rca cables and run front to amp 1, rear to amp2, and suboutput to sub input on amp
I am still not sure how speakers 5 and 6 are hooked up.. certainly not to zone 2, which is where I. Would like them... l but would probably need another amp
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LD50
Well-Known Member
Previous head unit is a possibility. I assumed it was factory since Bennington previously used Kicker. There are a couple of possibility to how your speakers may be run. You either have 2 pairs of speakers each tied together in parallel or series to 2 channels on your amp or 4 speakers wired to 4 channels on your amp and the last 2 wired to the amp in the head unit. Last option would be 4 speakers wired to the head unit and 2 speakers wired to bridge the 4 channels of your amp into 2. I'd guess the last is least likely.
The only way to find out for sure is to start tracing speaker wires and see where they go.
The only way to find out for sure is to start tracing speaker wires and see where they go.
Seadoorxpguy
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If you add another sub I would split up the mid ship speakers and give each speaker its own channel instead of having 2 speakers per ch. That drive the Ohm resistance up wiring them like that and reducing amp output power
Treyman159
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The hardest part of correcting the Bennington stereo is the bow speakers and two in-boats are wired in series (creating an 8ohm channel and cutting your power in half) due to the issue seadoorxpguy mentioned. So you have to run new wires no matter what setup you have from factory. If you want to keep just one amp you can run them in parallel to create a 2ohm channel (small risk of overheating your amp) or you can add an additional amp and keep 4ohm channels, one speaker per channel. If your only issue is while underway and you aren't an audiophile, I'd start by just having a shop correct your wiring and see how it sounds to you because it makes a huge difference in the power output.
Seadoorxpguy
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My boat and a few others ive done now all had home runs from each speaker to under the helm. The wires were tied together prior to the head unit plug
Treyman159
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Oh really? That’s very good to know, what years?
Seadoorxpguy
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19, 20, 21 and a 23
So new season is coming up... revisiting the modifications i want to make
1, remove the SB speakers that are tied into the mid-ship speakers.. tie them into another amplifier and zone 2 of the headunit....
2. Add second sub under the Switchback seat
Question... so i want to run 2 seperat amps? 1 for rear speakers and another amplifier for for the sub?
Or Rockford makes a 2ch mx200 for the rear speakers and then mx500 for the sub which has a pass through that I will use to feed the other amp sub...
Or use my existing AMP to run the 2 subs... and a new amp for the rea
Thoughts?
And I need to get my SB speakers fixed as they are not lighting up...
1, remove the SB speakers that are tied into the mid-ship speakers.. tie them into another amplifier and zone 2 of the headunit....
2. Add second sub under the Switchback seat
Question... so i want to run 2 seperat amps? 1 for rear speakers and another amplifier for for the sub?
Or Rockford makes a 2ch mx200 for the rear speakers and then mx500 for the sub which has a pass through that I will use to feed the other amp sub...
Or use my existing AMP to run the 2 subs... and a new amp for the rea
Thoughts?
And I need to get my SB speakers fixed as they are not lighting up...
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LaurencetheAdventurer
Well-Known Member
I am now talking with local installers to finalize my system design.
SB speakers: I believe you have the fiberglass swingback, so the big question is can you go bigger? My R&D is clear, going up to an 8" on the SB will provide much more mid-range bass, especially important if focused on sound when floating off the back, as the interior bass generally does not travel far. However, they require a larger opening and more room inside the SB - I believe the best option is the RF M2-8, though it is power hungry at 250WRMS, vs the same size Kicker MSC8 at 200RMS, however, the design is supposed to deliver a bit more Thump than the Kicker. Otherwise, the Kicker MSC6.5 is apparently also a nice upgrade and should fit (.06 larger hole), though, again, most believe the RF will provide better mid-range bass. If the rear speakers are for skiing, then the Kicker KML 8" horns are best, the sound will travel further, but you miss out on some of that mid-range bass. HOWEVER, I have yet to figure out if the 8" will actually fit in my SB with the stainless steel logo insert / how much work to modify that insert.
AMP: I am finding this to be so tricky, so many opinions. 1) Be mindful of your power draw and battery bank. We can spend 8 hours floating, and project with a Single Class D amp, my 140ah battery might not be enough, though via an Orion XS DC DC charger (more of a regulator in the use case for our boats), I can also tap into the starter battery safely (both are 140 amp Dual Purpose that will start my Merc 350 and approved for use by Mercury). My current pick is the RF 1500.x5. Then get a second amp for the rear speakers if I later decide it is needed (research suggests no). A highly rated local installer suggested the new Kicker LX1300.7 instead - wow, is that unit impressive! However, not marine-rated. Kicker said NO, don't use on a boat. Installer and locals say in Havasu - our air is dry, and hot - it will be find under the helm. ???
Sub: My benny is stuffed full of gear, so I don't really have the space to build the proper box to support a sub. So, I dug into the pre-enclosed subs. The conclusion was that the Kicker TB Tube and MWLE104 are the only 2 passive radiator subs on the market, and in a downfire mount, they will perform exceptionally well with our big plywood deck. I am opting for the MWLE104 under the front section of the SB, the installer says he has only installed one, and it was impressive. Its RMS is 200-400, 800 peak, while the TB Tube is 400/800, 300/600 for the 8" (and 1/3 the price).
So adding the sub, big 8" speakers for the rear SB, and eventually upgrading the interior KM65's - the RF1500x5 or Kicker LX1300.7, along will have a high demand on the battery, and will require almost 3 hours of run time to fully recharge the single 140ah battery (our older Merc's kick out a bit under 50amps (per hour) total, I estimate 40 of that can go into the battery. I have not run the actual numbers, but Gemini suggests at 30% volume, I am pulling 10ah, at 50% 20ah, at 80% 50ah. At 6hrs, 2hrs, 1hr, that is 60+40+50 = 150ah per typical long 9-hour day. Adding in a second amp will definitely take more power, even at the same exact pull, and then add in a second sub..... My Dock does not have a power source, so I will probably have to use a 2000w geny each day - that should charge the 140ah battery in 1 to 2 hours.
Hope that helps...
SB speakers: I believe you have the fiberglass swingback, so the big question is can you go bigger? My R&D is clear, going up to an 8" on the SB will provide much more mid-range bass, especially important if focused on sound when floating off the back, as the interior bass generally does not travel far. However, they require a larger opening and more room inside the SB - I believe the best option is the RF M2-8, though it is power hungry at 250WRMS, vs the same size Kicker MSC8 at 200RMS, however, the design is supposed to deliver a bit more Thump than the Kicker. Otherwise, the Kicker MSC6.5 is apparently also a nice upgrade and should fit (.06 larger hole), though, again, most believe the RF will provide better mid-range bass. If the rear speakers are for skiing, then the Kicker KML 8" horns are best, the sound will travel further, but you miss out on some of that mid-range bass. HOWEVER, I have yet to figure out if the 8" will actually fit in my SB with the stainless steel logo insert / how much work to modify that insert.
AMP: I am finding this to be so tricky, so many opinions. 1) Be mindful of your power draw and battery bank. We can spend 8 hours floating, and project with a Single Class D amp, my 140ah battery might not be enough, though via an Orion XS DC DC charger (more of a regulator in the use case for our boats), I can also tap into the starter battery safely (both are 140 amp Dual Purpose that will start my Merc 350 and approved for use by Mercury). My current pick is the RF 1500.x5. Then get a second amp for the rear speakers if I later decide it is needed (research suggests no). A highly rated local installer suggested the new Kicker LX1300.7 instead - wow, is that unit impressive! However, not marine-rated. Kicker said NO, don't use on a boat. Installer and locals say in Havasu - our air is dry, and hot - it will be find under the helm. ???
Sub: My benny is stuffed full of gear, so I don't really have the space to build the proper box to support a sub. So, I dug into the pre-enclosed subs. The conclusion was that the Kicker TB Tube and MWLE104 are the only 2 passive radiator subs on the market, and in a downfire mount, they will perform exceptionally well with our big plywood deck. I am opting for the MWLE104 under the front section of the SB, the installer says he has only installed one, and it was impressive. Its RMS is 200-400, 800 peak, while the TB Tube is 400/800, 300/600 for the 8" (and 1/3 the price).
So adding the sub, big 8" speakers for the rear SB, and eventually upgrading the interior KM65's - the RF1500x5 or Kicker LX1300.7, along will have a high demand on the battery, and will require almost 3 hours of run time to fully recharge the single 140ah battery (our older Merc's kick out a bit under 50amps (per hour) total, I estimate 40 of that can go into the battery. I have not run the actual numbers, but Gemini suggests at 30% volume, I am pulling 10ah, at 50% 20ah, at 80% 50ah. At 6hrs, 2hrs, 1hr, that is 60+40+50 = 150ah per typical long 9-hour day. Adding in a second amp will definitely take more power, even at the same exact pull, and then add in a second sub..... My Dock does not have a power source, so I will probably have to use a 2000w geny each day - that should charge the 140ah battery in 1 to 2 hours.
Hope that helps...
So here is where I am at:
1. I already have a Kicker 5ch amp - 48KXMA900-5 It provides power to the kicker 6.5" sub in front and the 6 speakers. I rewired my boat so the RCA cables from the headunit feed the amp directly, so I have full balance, fade and Subwoofer control. - Much improvement over what was there...
2. I have a Kicker 6.5" down Subwoofer under the front seat tied to the amp above - I think its 6.5" , I do not know the impedance
3. i want to disconnect the rear SB speakers and hook them into Zone 2 of the head unit. and add a Rockford M2-200X2 amp. My head unit has RCA cable for Zone 2 that will feed the AMP directly and I just need to hook up the speaker wire for the SB speakers to the amp.. This will give me independent volume control of the REAR SB speakers.
4. I am assuming by removing the 4 speakers tied together(MID and SB) that will improve the sound to the mid-speakers, slightly. One day I will improve/replace these speakers..
5. then i am torn do i use my 48KXMA900-5 AMP to drive 2 subs? its capable of 200W x 1 @ 4 ohms.. Do i run my subs in series or parrallel? I was going to leave the 6.5" sub and add a 10" sub under the switchback. Not sure on the impedance of the Kicker 6.5" sub.. I have a ton of room in my switchback so i was thinking the Kicker 10" downward sub.....
or do I run a another amp RF M2-500X1 to just power the sub in the switch back? I would take the sub out from the head unit into the RF M2-500X1 and this amp has a feedthrough to then run it into the Sub input of the 48KXMA900-5 to feed the front sub.. i might be a little concerned the M2-500X1 is to much power, but i guess i can turn the gain down...
6. My boat has dual batteries. so not sure I am to concerned about draining the battery with 3 amps.. but 2 i think would be better...
One other option is I abandon the front sub all together and use the 48KXMA900 to power a Kicker 10" sub in the switchback.. but would that be a 2ohm or 4?
thoughts?
1. I already have a Kicker 5ch amp - 48KXMA900-5 It provides power to the kicker 6.5" sub in front and the 6 speakers. I rewired my boat so the RCA cables from the headunit feed the amp directly, so I have full balance, fade and Subwoofer control. - Much improvement over what was there...
2. I have a Kicker 6.5" down Subwoofer under the front seat tied to the amp above - I think its 6.5" , I do not know the impedance
3. i want to disconnect the rear SB speakers and hook them into Zone 2 of the head unit. and add a Rockford M2-200X2 amp. My head unit has RCA cable for Zone 2 that will feed the AMP directly and I just need to hook up the speaker wire for the SB speakers to the amp.. This will give me independent volume control of the REAR SB speakers.
4. I am assuming by removing the 4 speakers tied together(MID and SB) that will improve the sound to the mid-speakers, slightly. One day I will improve/replace these speakers..
5. then i am torn do i use my 48KXMA900-5 AMP to drive 2 subs? its capable of 200W x 1 @ 4 ohms.. Do i run my subs in series or parrallel? I was going to leave the 6.5" sub and add a 10" sub under the switchback. Not sure on the impedance of the Kicker 6.5" sub.. I have a ton of room in my switchback so i was thinking the Kicker 10" downward sub.....
or do I run a another amp RF M2-500X1 to just power the sub in the switch back? I would take the sub out from the head unit into the RF M2-500X1 and this amp has a feedthrough to then run it into the Sub input of the 48KXMA900-5 to feed the front sub.. i might be a little concerned the M2-500X1 is to much power, but i guess i can turn the gain down...
6. My boat has dual batteries. so not sure I am to concerned about draining the battery with 3 amps.. but 2 i think would be better...
One other option is I abandon the front sub all together and use the 48KXMA900 to power a Kicker 10" sub in the switchback.. but would that be a 2ohm or 4?
thoughts?
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LaurencetheAdventurer
Well-Known Member
Well, some of these details are beyond my new DIY knowledge and probably deserve a real pro. I know enough to say Impedance is important and affects power delivery, sound, and how hard it works the amp (2ohm being more than 4ohm) - but you have a high-quality Class D amp, so it should be able to handle what you need. In fact, that amp has been suggested as the all-around best to put punch into our stock systems, but they are often wired incorrectly. It should already be providing you with adjustment for fade (rear 2 vs front 4), balance, and sub. If not, I would conclude something is not wired correctly. The manual shows Amp 1, 2 and 3(sub) all have RCA inputs, are these being utilized?
I am not aware of an enclosed 6.5 bass by Kicker for marine, and in fact could not find one even in their auto section. Custom? But, 6.5 for bass, sounds small - everything I have read suggests 10" as a minimum, though I have seen some 8". Subs are generally rated for a minimum of 300W, 200W should therefore be adequate to run most subs, if you are not pushing the system hard. Your amp pushes 200 at 4 ohms, or 400 at 2 ohms - again, plenty for 1 sub - 2 subs, would be short, and yes, the second amp would be needed.
Depending on your budget and what your current sub actually is, the Kicker 51MWLE10 2 ohm - should be a perfect match and IMO - is the ideal subwoofer for our TT when placed in the front portion of the SB downfired - but currently this is just theory. The Kicker Tube 43CWTB102 - 10" 2 ohm is very popular, and lots of reviews that it works great, at less than half the price (but for downfire you now have to move it the helm, under the SB I have not been able to determine how well it works with the aluminum siding (rattling), though I believe your R is fiberglass).
If you are not upgrading the rear speakers, it seems dedicating these to one set of channels, and then the 4 in-cabin to the second set of channels, should be fine, delivering about 125W per speaker. Once you know this is all set up properly, you can start adding additional subs if you are not getting enough power. Though I have concluded at this point, you also need to upgrade the speakers, depending on whether your issue is just loudness or clarity. Which I would be very interested in knowing... Everything I have read is that with the amp you have, a proper sub, and proper wiring, our stock systems become plenty loud and sound at least good, if not just short of great, even at WOT doing 35-40mph.
With all that said, I have heard systems at the sound bar that are amazingly loud and fantastically clear, really audiophile quality, from 100 feet away - and that those systems start at $8K +.
These are the details I am working through with a local installer this spring. I am adding an amp, sub and new rear speakers. I am 99% that will be all I need. IF not, then I am headed your way, and adding a second amp to drive the rear speakers, or maybe just the sub. After that, replace the 4 in cabin KM65 and get each pair on their own channel.
I am not aware of an enclosed 6.5 bass by Kicker for marine, and in fact could not find one even in their auto section. Custom? But, 6.5 for bass, sounds small - everything I have read suggests 10" as a minimum, though I have seen some 8". Subs are generally rated for a minimum of 300W, 200W should therefore be adequate to run most subs, if you are not pushing the system hard. Your amp pushes 200 at 4 ohms, or 400 at 2 ohms - again, plenty for 1 sub - 2 subs, would be short, and yes, the second amp would be needed.
Depending on your budget and what your current sub actually is, the Kicker 51MWLE10 2 ohm - should be a perfect match and IMO - is the ideal subwoofer for our TT when placed in the front portion of the SB downfired - but currently this is just theory. The Kicker Tube 43CWTB102 - 10" 2 ohm is very popular, and lots of reviews that it works great, at less than half the price (but for downfire you now have to move it the helm, under the SB I have not been able to determine how well it works with the aluminum siding (rattling), though I believe your R is fiberglass).
If you are not upgrading the rear speakers, it seems dedicating these to one set of channels, and then the 4 in-cabin to the second set of channels, should be fine, delivering about 125W per speaker. Once you know this is all set up properly, you can start adding additional subs if you are not getting enough power. Though I have concluded at this point, you also need to upgrade the speakers, depending on whether your issue is just loudness or clarity. Which I would be very interested in knowing... Everything I have read is that with the amp you have, a proper sub, and proper wiring, our stock systems become plenty loud and sound at least good, if not just short of great, even at WOT doing 35-40mph.
With all that said, I have heard systems at the sound bar that are amazingly loud and fantastically clear, really audiophile quality, from 100 feet away - and that those systems start at $8K +.
These are the details I am working through with a local installer this spring. I am adding an amp, sub and new rear speakers. I am 99% that will be all I need. IF not, then I am headed your way, and adding a second amp to drive the rear speakers, or maybe just the sub. After that, replace the 4 in cabin KM65 and get each pair on their own channel.
