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Battery help

The specs look great, apart from it not being available until 3rd Q 2013. I look forward to seeing the user manual or installation guide to see the mechanism used for communication with ACRs. I expect that one would need to use Blue Sea Systems ACRs for this functionality to work. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I really like their products, including the relatively new 7649 Mini Add-a-battery package suitable for the alternator output from most outboards. The 4 stage charging is interesting too. The description implies other multi-bank smart chargers force all banks to float simultaneously, I'll have to look at the specs from my multi bank chargers again. There is a possibility that this feature only applies to configurations with ACRs that were not manually or automatically disabled prior to turn on of the multi-bank charger.
 
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Thanks Jim, I like the sounds of the unit, but the not being available right now is killing me!! I did send a message off to Northstar batteries to see what charger they may recommend for my particular application, the first said I would want a minimum of 40A charger, but he was going to forward my question on to someone who knows more. Impressive, sent the question last night and he got back to me this morning. I also said I was looking at this charger,

http://www.pmariner.com/productFeature.php?ProductNum=63140

It's a ProMariner pronautic 1240P, but it also comes in bigger amperage if need be. One other thing I like is it has a customizable charge setting, so I've asked Northstar what they recommend for the charge volts at the different stages because you can alter it up or down for each stage.
 
Also a nice charger. I like the additional equalization function specific to flooded cell batteries, designed to remove sulphates from the battery plates. I would be surprised if the Northstar folks recommend setting customizable charge voltages different from those in the preset AGM settings - please do let us know what you find out. One thing this charge has in common with the Blue Sea Systems charger is the ability to independently charge 3 banks, are you looking at a shore charger for House, Start, and Stereo banks?
 
No to the start/house and stereo bank question, although I could if ever need be. As for the customizable part. The problem, or the reality of it is, the Northstar batteries are not regular AGM batteries, and do have a different charge parameters, as far as I can read. It was why I liked the Blue Sea one, because it actually had a preset setting specifically for TPPL (thin plate pure lead), not just AGM. I don't think it is a huge difference, most things I've read is that it is very similar to the flooded battery setting. Still waiting to hear back further. But thanks for your continued interest in my dilemma! haha
 
:eek: - me being very surprised.

*edit - the thought occurs to me, if the appropriate charging cycle for the Northstar TPPL batteries is so close to Flooded, you or a buddy might have a single bank smart charger for flooded batteries on hand. If so, use that to charge the Stereo bank until the Blue Sea Systems charger is available.
 
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So spoke with a fella today that I was put in touch with through Northstar batteries, he told me to read this information and call him tomorrow (we briefly talked about setup and stuff as well). Interesting stuff that they can directly tell from a 'failed' battery. I think they base #'s off the 25 C temperature, interested in any thoughts. http://www.energy1ba...acteristics.pdf

Oh, he also thinks a Victron Pheonix 1250 is the way to go. He said you need to have a minimum of 10% of your ah rating for a charger. example, I will have 3 batteries in parallel with a combined total of 300 ah, therefore, I need a charger with AT LEAST 30A, recommends a 50A though.
 
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Very nice of your contact to take the time to talk with you and provide charger recommendations. Gotta love good customer service.

I did read the article, I'm wondering if this analysis is specific to batteries not connected to an alternator. Alternators unlike smart chargers do not have bulk absorption and float modes, and I would expect that this would be the more standard configuration for their automotive and marine lines. Anyway, part of the write up on smart charging bothers me - they describe how smart chargers will bulk charge until the battery or bank is 75-80% full and then switch to absorption; but then they suggest that the absorption mode is controlled by a timer (I believe they said 1 hour). This is contrary to my understanding of how smart chargers function, as I understand it the mode switch is made based on voltage, not time; timers only apply when the target voltage is not reached in an excessive amount of time. My understanding of smart chargers that have custom or programmable options to presets allow different voltage settings, and I am not certain but believe the timeout values are not customizable. My oldest smart charger is a 4 year old Guest 16202. The 16202 has different timeouts for bulk and absorption. The bulk time out is 14 hours, if the charger does not recharge to the preset battery voltage within 14 hours, the charger halts and signals an error condition. Assuming the bulk mode works ok, and the charger switches to absorption mode, a secondary timeout of 8 hours applies. Here if the battery is not charged to float voltage preset levels in 8 hours, the charger will switch to float anyway. Perhaps the author was just trying to make a point when they cautioned about the damage a 1 hour absorption timeout would cause but this is not clear to me. However, I can say that my 5 year old batteries are both still in service with no noticeable loss of capacity. I leave them on a smart charger off season, and in the boat all season without shore charging. The house battery is sized such that I typically do not discharge it deeper than 70%. My use of charger presets has not led to premature battery failure contrary to the article's conclusion.

I did find the post mortem write ups interesting. Even so, assumptions as to the conditions which caused the battery failure are postulated and then seem to be used to support the article's conclusion. Didn't Northstar run charge/discharge/recharge tests to determine the lifecycle claims made in the product literature? Why make assumptions and not use lifecycle test results to determine optimal recharge rates and suitability of smart charger presets? Perhaps I'm reading too much between the lines here. I do believe that your contact is giving you good advice as to recommended charger amp rates and brands, but note I have no personal knowledge of either.
 
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Hmmmm, I see what you're saying, leads me to believe that this is either old data from the days before smart chargers, or somebody screwed up. I think it can't be a smart charger. I am leaning towards the ProMariner pronautic 1250 since the Victron isn't set right at the factory (it says it's at 14.4 and 13.2) and the Northstar require 14.7 and 13.5. So then I would have to also buy the adapter so I can hook it to my computer to adjust the voltages. I can do it right on the unit. The Victron says it is a 4 stage which is alright. The Pronautic I can get from my dealer and have Canadian warranty on it. The Victron I can't even find a dealer in Canada, this guy I'm talking to will ship it to me, it's $100 more, plus exchange rate, plus duty, plus shipping, plus the adapter thing. I think typing this out made up my mind, but interested in any deeper thoughts on the pronautic. Thanks!
 
Jim_R said:
Also a nice charger. I like the additional equalization function specific to flooded cell batteries, designed to remove sulphates from the battery plates. I would be surprised if the Northstar folks recommend setting customizable charge voltages different from those in the preset AGM settings - please do let us know what you find out. One thing this charge has in common with the Blue Sea Systems charger is the ability to independently charge 3 banks, are you looking at a shore charger for House, Start, and Stereo banks?
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I have another question to ask Jim,(anyone is welcome to answer ) when you download the manual on the Promariner Pronautic 1250, Page 7 states "This unit is designed for Permanent Installation Only. Powering thisbunit through a plug and socket configuration will void your warranty " soooo, now the dumb question, does this mean I CAN'T use this as a shore power charger that I just plug into my house in the driveway ? That's kind of how I'm reading it!

http://www.pmariner.com/productFeature.php?ProductNum=63150&page=1
 
Page 12-14 talks about "shore power" so I'm thinking they mean you CANNOT direct wire a "plug" to the unit, but must be "hard wired", shown bottom left page 9. ????

Also see bottom right of page 7 with comment about shore power.
 
Okay, but then how the heck do you hook it up? I'm just baffled as to how it makes a difference whether it has a plug on it that gets inserted to my wall receptacle, which has a circuit panel, or it is hardwired to a circuit panel inside the boat, that is then plugged into my wall receptacle? Is it because of the amperage? I don't get it.
 
Okay, I think I have a little better idea on something. As far as I can tell, they want you to have a galvanic isolator in it.

http://www.pmariner.com/productFeature.php?ProductNum=22074

Now, since my boat isn't actually sitting in the water when I'm charging, do I need one of these? I have sent off an email to ProMariner and hope they respond quickly, but figured I could get a faster answer here! Thanks everyone!

But this leads me to another of my many possibly stupid questions, so how does it work if my charger is putting out 50A, and is plugged into my house outlet which has a 15A breaker? Does the charger somehow put out more amps because it is putting out 12V, yet taking in 110V? As I said, this could be a really dumb question.
 
Yes, watts is voltage times current, so 50a at 12v is 600w plus losses for power conversion from 115vac to 12vdc.

Sometimes the warning about not direct connecting with a plug and socket has to do with fusing or circuit breakers. When hard wired into the boat it usually will have some circuit protection close by, whereas a wire out to a socket and plug may not, since it typically goes all the way back to the source.
 
Wow, impressive! Sent this last night, answer already!!

Yes your warranty would still be valid.

ProMariner Support

800-824-0524

www.pmariner.com

From: Derrick

Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 9:01 AM

To: Support

Subject: Re: Professional Mariner

Perfect!! Thanks for your quick response! So do I still have warranty on it if wired that way? In the manual I read that hooking it up directly to a plug and socket voided warranty. Thanks! 

Derrick 

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.

From: Support

Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 7:52 AM

To: derrick

Subject: RE: Professional Mariner

Typically these units are hard wired to an AC panel but if you wanted to make an AC pig tail so that you could plug the unit in when you’re in your driveway that would be fine. I would also make sure the unit is in a dry location as well. Contact us at the number listed below and we can probably offer you a discounted rate on this unit as well.

Have a good day.

ProMariner Support

800-824-0524

www.pmariner.com

From: [mailto:Derrick

Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 10:59 PM

To: Support

Subject: Professional Marine

name: Derrick

Message:

Hi, I am looking at purchasing a Pronautic 1250 tomorrow and was reading through the manual. I plan on using this in my pontoon boat to charge 3 group 31 Northstar batteries in parallel. My question is, I see that it says that you cannot have this hooked up via plug and socket. Which since it would be sitting in my driveway plugged into my house power, I assume it would be. Am I correct? Can I use this in this manner? I was looking for a 50A charger and was comparing between this and a Victron Phoenix. Will this void warranty having it hooked up this way, and if so, how are you supposed to hook it up? I have a pretty decent stereo going into the boat and it will not be hooked to my outboard's alternator as it doesn't put out enough amperage and I fear will be burning up alternators. I would appreciate a timely response, as I said, was ready to order this tomorrow and happened to read the manual. Feel free to call me as well if it is easier for you.

Thanks, Derrick
 
Nerds.
 
I wish I was a "nerd". You guys are just too knowledgeable. I've been reading all the battery threads since I just want to add a second battery but there seems to be so many different options, I'm getting confused. I usually need to see things in person to really figure things out. I won't hijack this thread but I will go back to one of the others and ask a few questions.

Oh by the way Derrick, Thanks for finally turning off the air conditioning that you have been sending south to Wisconsin, or just set the thermostat to 80-85. We are just now getting some good boating weather.
 
floves said:
I wish I was a "nerd". You guys are just too knowledgeable. I've been reading all the battery threads since I just want to add a second battery but there seems to be so many different options, I'm getting confused. I usually need to see things in person to really figure things out. I won't hijack this thread but I will go back to one of the others and ask a few questions.

Oh by the way Derrick, Thanks for finally turning off the air conditioning that you have been sending south to Wisconsin, or just set the thermostat to 80-85. We are just now getting some good boating weather.
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Don't be confused, the simplest way is the Blue Sea Add a Battery. If I had an inboard motor with a decent alternator, that's what I would have used. For a "normal" setup and usage, it will work great.

The last thing I am is knowledgeable with this!! That's why I keep asking a million questions, in hopes a few will take the time to help me out. It is very much appreciated! Ordered the Pronautic 1250 today. If someone else is looking, the Victron Phoenix 1250 is a very good unit too. I went with the Pronautic due to price and easily available as my dealer can get it.
 
goldnrod24 said:
Nerds.
Click to expand...
:)

Revenge+of+the+nerds+Lewis+Skolnick.jpg
 
I have not laughed so hard at one word in a long time! That was funny.

Jim/Derrick - Don't stop posting on this though. I've read it all and find it very interesting. I am certain this was meant half in jest, and half in compliment.

In case you didn't get your answer earlier, 50A at 12V DC is equivalent to 5A at 120V AC, that's why it works and your charger won't trip your 15A AC breaker. Voltage is electrical pressure. The more pressure (voltage), the less current (amps) you need to do the same about of work (watts).

Semper - How did you get my picture?
 
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